On Oct 17, 2019, at 7:47 PM, Rush Battle <prb(a)rushbattle.com> wrote:

On Oct 17, 2019, at 4:31 PM, Dan Lawrence via Artisan-User <artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de> wrote:

Hi Dan, Rush, all, Dan, I'm not sure Rush answered your configuration question, but he did allude to a significant issue of controlling an A.C heating element with a PWM/relay of an inappropriate switching type/frequency. I think you have to change your SSR device/supplier. There's no option to get it right with the Phidgets device, there can't be. There is useful information on the Artisan blog, maybe have a look at this to help you with your configuration knowledge. But bear in mind running an AC heater element at a 16kHz PWM frequency will give you undesired effects, including premature heater element failure. https://artisan-roasterscope.blogspot.com/2018/05/automating-huky.html It might be a little bit unfair to blame Artisan for the the Phidgets device not being suitable for AC heater control. Marko is a god! Er, well maybe at least a generous and intelligent superhero, and he keeps giving, but he doesn't have any control over third party product development- Phidgets, or indeed accidental inappropriate device combination by users (of which there are infinite possibilities). Unfortunately, changing the mentioned Phidgets device frequency and crossing type is never going to be possible in any application, or by anyone other than the Phidgets design team, it's in the hardware. I am running an electric roaster myself with zero crossing PWM control of the heating element, with 100 distinct levels from 0% through 100%. It works great. There are plenty of ways of doing this. I'm now using a Phidgets voltage output signal (0-5V) to control an Autonics SPC1 power controller. If you consider this device, be careful it may not be appropriate as the SPC1 does not support a wide range of mains voltage. There was a discussion of the subject of PWM control on the list on 17-18 August this year. I'm sorry I don't know how to view archives, so I have copied the conversation below. It has links to good, easily understandable, information on the PWM zero crossing issue, which can help you search for and select an appropriate device. Apologies to those who have seen this before, but, Dan, I hope you find it useful. Regards, Brad Bradshaw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Marko Luther via Artisan-User *&lt;artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de&gt; 18 August 2019 at 03:02 Reply-To: Marko Luther &lt;marko.luther(a)gmx.net&gt; To: Phil West &lt;phil.west(a)ieee.org&gt; Cc: artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de Dear Phil, section, but I don't think I ever included the '.local' qualifier, and I had also been trying to use the network name and password that I had set up on the HUB5000 web interface. Cool! be changed somehow? Well, that is external to Artisan. You need to read the data sheet of the product you purchased. I read on https://www.phidgets.com/?tier=3&catid=2&pcid=1&prodid=714 that the PWM period is fixed to 16khz. The API does not offer any option to modify this. Just the duty can be changed (via out() from within Artisan). The User Guide on the same page does provide some Example Uses. Best, Marko wrote: downloaded the Phidget software onto my mac and verified that I could read the TCs and set the PWM. Then, in Artisan, I filled in the Configure -> Device -> Meter by selecting TMP1101 4xTC 01 and putting out(0,{}) in the Config -> Events -> Sliders -> Power PWM Command field. and BT, and the %PWR slider has no effect on the OUT1100 output. Note that nowhere do I reference anything about the HUB5000. Device, 4th tab)? USB. If that "Network" flag is ticked, it also looks for remote Phidgets served either by a HUB5000 and SBC or a Phidget Network Server running on another computer on the network. the Phidget Network Server Artisan should connect too) via the "Host" field in the Phidgets tab. The Port should remain 5661, which is the default port of Phidget Network Servers. The host can be given either as IP address (like http://192.168.2.113) or as a symbolic name (like hub5000.local). You can see the host name/IP in the Phidgets Control Panel (your HUB5000 should be listed also under Network Phidgets). 09.05.06.png><Screen Shot 2019-08-17 at 09.05.32.png> wrote: artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de&gt; wrote: [Quoted text hidden] ------------------------------ *Phil West via Artisan-User *&lt;artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de&gt; 18 August 2019 at 07:34 Reply-To: Phil West &lt;phil.west(a)ieee.org&gt; To: Marko Luther &lt;marko.luther(a)gmx.net&gt; Cc: artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de that be changed somehow? product you purchased. I read on to modify this. Just the duty can be changed Wow: I guess I should have checked (I have now, and you are correct), but it never occurred to me that someone would build a general purpose PWM and not allow the period to be changed. Most (all?) SSR devices switch AC loads on zero crossings. One US AC cycle is 16.7 milliseconds, so if you want to vary the AC duty seen by a load from 0%-100% with 1% resolution, you need a period of 1.7 seconds. Although you can, of course, modulate the load power using a 16kHz (62 microsecond period) PWM it really doesn't make much sense and leads to an extremely nonlinear %/PWR curve with almost all of the action happening below 50%. I'm going to give the Phidget guys a call next week and talk to them about this. On my prior Arduino-based controller, this period was too long to implement w/the standard built-in Atmel timer-based PWM functions, so I just implemented a simple interrupt-based routine that worked fine. [Quoted text hidden] _______________________________________________ Artisan-User mailing list -- artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de To unsubscribe send an email to artisan-user-leave(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de unsubscribe via https://mailman.ghostdub.de/postorius/lists/artisan-user.lists.einfachkaffe… ------------------------------ *Brad Bradshaw *&lt;ianabradshaw(a)gmail.com&gt; 18 August 2019 at 18:38 To: Phil West &lt;phil.west(a)ieee.org&gt; Cc: Marko Luther &lt;marko.luther(a)gmx.net&gt;et>, artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de Hi Phil, Yes it seems strange that Phidgets seem to have neglected the possibility for AC control in their PWM. There is a possibility the switching frequency is determined solely by hardware, in which case they would not be able to add a frequency control to the API for this design. It's very sensible talking to them, to ask if it is possible to present a control in software though, good luck with them! There are a couple of other options for effective heater element control. Both would rely on a different type of SSR to be used. We'll get rid of the dangerous option first! You could rectify and smooth the AC heater power and use a DC to DC SSR with the existing Phidgets PWM output. Though it is likely safer to stay away from high voltage, high power circuit design, unless it is an area in which you are familiar. The most simple, available, option would seem to be to use a proportional control SSR. These take an analogue current (4-20mA), or voltage signal (0-5V or 0-10V) on the input and convert it into either phase angle or burst fire control. In a roasting environment to repeatably control a heater element, current control of a burst fire SSR would be the best low noise solution. Unfortunately there is no current control option through Phidgets, voltage output is available and suitable, if a little more susceptible to noise. I requested current control (4-20mA) from Phidgets quite some long time ago. Maybe you can ask them too about this possibility if you speak with them. It's not the end of the world, current control has better noise rejection than voltage control. We are unlikely to notice a difference with voltage output, particularly if we make a good job of the physical connections and keep wiring short and away from other noisy circuits. It's just a sensible principle to adopt current control where possible. Crydom have a nice short, clear, pdf on the subject of SSR switching types here: http://www.crydom.com/en/tech/newsletters/Solid%20Statements%20-%20SSRs%20s… more reading; http://www.crydom.com/en/tech/newsletters.shtml Phidgets can do 0-4.2 or 0-10V voltage control with the OUT1000/1/2 series. All supported by Artisan with the VOUT Command: out(n,v) where n is channel number and v is voltage. Hope this helps, Brad [Quoted text hidden] ------------------------------ *Marko Luther *&lt;marko.luther(a)gmx.net&gt; 18 August 2019 at 18:46 To: Brad Bradshaw &lt;ianabradshaw(a)gmail.com&gt; Cc: Phil West &lt;phil.west(a)ieee.org&gt;rg>, artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de Dear Brad, thanks for this competent input on the subject. I just want to add that the Phidget competitor from Switzerland, Yoctopuce, offers a 4-20mA output module (and also an input module). They sent me one, but I did not yet find the time to add support for it. However, I plan to do so soon. Best, Marko [Quoted text hidden] ------------------------------ *Matthias Gerstgrasser via Artisan-User *< artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de&gt; 18 August 2019 at 18:51 Reply-To: Matthias Gerstgrasser &lt;matthias(a)gerstgrasser.net&gt; To: &quot;artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de&quot; < artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de&gt; Hi Brad, Marko, Phil, Just to add another option, there are PWM AC dimmer modules in the DIY / hobbyist market. Those take a PWM signal as input, and “convert” this to AC phase-angle control. I have tested this one for AC motor control: https://www.tindie.com/products/bugrovs2012/pwm-ac-light-dimmer-module-50hz… They are a lot more ‘hack-y’ than proper SSRs, but can be a quick fix if you’re comfortable with that. Best, Matthias [Quoted text hidden] _______________________________________________ Artisan-User mailing list -- artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de To unsubscribe send an email to artisan-user-leave(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de unsubscribe via https://mailman.ghostdub.de/postorius/lists/artisan-user.lists.einfachkaffe… _______________________________________________ Artisan-User mailing list -- artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de To unsubscribe send an email to artisan-user-leave(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de unsubscribe via https://mailman.ghostdub.de/postorius/lists/artisan-user.lists.einfachkaffe…

Thanks to Phil, Brad and Rush for the input. I have a slightly different thought for a solution that may not be super precise, but I suspect would still be more accurate and reproducible than the manual control I'm presently using. I'm going to cut and past from a private discussion I had with Rush, so I hope it makes sense. 1. As I suggested in my post, use the VINT hub with the Phidget REL1000_0 relay to trigger an SSR to toggle the heat using a button, not a slider. My thought was to use a pulse command for a given amount of time, say 6 seconds. The PID would then decide to trigger it again or wait several cycles then trigger it. I realize this could result in a bit of a roller coaster ride but possibly could be fine tuned. I'm already using the TMP1101_0 - 4x Thermocouple Phidget into the VINT hub for capturing BT. As an aside, I'm currently using an SSR with an external PID, but this only sets the maximum temp to provide a shutoff in case the temp rises too high. This functions just fine. I found a general discussion of this on Marko's blog post "More Phidgets!" but it just told me enough to know it's possible. Here's a snip: [image: image.png] I'm particularly drawn to the IO Command "pulse (<n> , <t>) sets the output of channel n to on for time t in milliseconds", My hangup is what exactly is channel n? Looking at the Phidget control panel, it's not intuitively obvious. Each port has its own set of channels, so how do I indicate Port 1 Channel 0? Here is a screen shot of my Phidgets control panel: [image: image.png] Would this bypass the switching frequency problem, as I am just activating the relay for a set period of time and then it turns off on its own? It would then wait for the next command from the PID. If you think this would work, then my next question is what to put in the Documentation cell in the button definition: [image: image.png] And just now looking at it, should the Action be IO command, not Serial Command? I may be way off base on this, so feel free to let me know. Thanks for your help. Dan On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 11:58 AM Phil West &lt;phil.west(a)ieee.org&gt; wrote: > All correct. I started that Aug 17-18 thread, and I remain amazed that > the Phidgets PWM devices don't allow one to select the PWM interval (which > we want to be about 1.6 seconds). This is a Phidgets issue, not an Artisan > issue, and the Phidget people had no interest in addressing the > limitation. > Because of this, I mailed back the otherwise very nice wifi phidget > system and built a new system using a $14 Raspberry Pi zero w, a few > Nodelynk devices, and a dual MAX31856 digital thermocouple interface on > SPI. This device: > https://store.ncd.io/product/pca9531-2-channel-8-bit-pwm-with-8-outputs-gpi… has > both variable PWM period and Duty cycle and works fine w/Artisan to get 1% > accuracy/resolution from my PWM slider. The 'Pi device is hooked to my > roaster, connects to WiFi, and I access the TCs, and the PWM through the > Artisan Modbus device options. > > -Phil > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 12:27 PM Brad Bradshaw via Artisan-User < > artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de&gt; wrote: > >> Hi Dan, Rush, all, >> >> Dan, I'm not sure Rush answered your configuration question, but he did >> allude to a significant issue of controlling an A.C heating element with a >> PWM/relay of an inappropriate switching type/frequency. I think you have to >> change your SSR device/supplier. There's no option to get it right with the >> Phidgets device, there can't be. >> >> There is useful information on the Artisan blog, maybe have a look at >> this to help you with your configuration knowledge. But bear in mind >> running an AC heater element at a 16kHz PWM frequency will give you >> undesired effects, including premature heater element failure. >> https://artisan-roasterscope.blogspot.com/2018/05/automating-huky.html >> >> It might be a little bit unfair to blame Artisan for the the Phidgets >> device not being suitable for AC heater control. Marko is a god! Er, well >> maybe at least a generous and intelligent superhero, and he keeps giving, >> but he doesn't have any control over third party product development- >> Phidgets, or indeed accidental inappropriate device combination by users >> (of which there are infinite possibilities). Unfortunately, changing the >> mentioned Phidgets device frequency and crossing type is never going to be >> possible in any application, or by anyone other than the Phidgets design >> team, it's in the hardware. >> >> I am running an electric roaster myself with zero crossing PWM control >> of the heating element, with 100 distinct levels from 0% through 100%. It >> works great. There are plenty of ways of doing this. I'm now using a >> Phidgets voltage output signal (0-5V) to control an Autonics SPC1 power >> controller. If you consider this device, be careful it may not be >> appropriate as the SPC1 does not support a wide range of mains voltage. >> >> There was a discussion of the subject of PWM control on the list on >> 17-18 August this year. I'm sorry I don't know how to view archives, so I >> have copied the conversation below. It has links to good, easily >> understandable, information on the PWM zero crossing issue, which can help >> you search for and select an appropriate device. Apologies to those who >> have seen this before, but, Dan, I hope you find it useful. >> >> Regards, >> >> Brad Bradshaw >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Marko Luther via Artisan-User *&lt;artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de&gt; 18 >> August 2019 at 03:02 >> >> Reply-To: Marko Luther &lt;marko.luther(a)gmx.net&gt; >> To: Phil West &lt;phil.west(a)ieee.org&gt; >> Cc: artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de >> Dear Phil, >> >> > On 17. Aug 2019, at 17:39, Phil West &lt;phil.west(a)ieee.org&gt; wrote: >> > >> > Marko: >> > Thanks! This worked--I had made a few attempts to use the network >> section, but I don't think I ever included the '.local' qualifier, and I >> had also been trying to use the network name and password that I had set up >> on the HUB5000 web interface. >> >> Cool! >> >> > >> > One final question: what is the default period for the PWM, and can >> that be changed somehow? >> >> Well, that is external to Artisan. You need to read the data sheet of >> the product you purchased. I read on >> >> https://www.phidgets.com/?tier=3&catid=2&pcid=1&prodid=714 >> >> that the PWM period is fixed to 16khz. The API does not offer any option >> to modify this. Just the duty can be changed (via out() from within >> Artisan). >> >> The User Guide on the same page does provide some Example Uses. >> >> Best, >> Marko >> >> > >> > Thanks again for your help, >> > Phil >> > >> > On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 3:14 AM Marko Luther &lt;marko.luther(a)gmx.net&gt; >> wrote: >> > Dear Phil, >> > >> >> On 17. Aug 2019, at 03:56, Phil West &lt;phil.west(a)ieee.org&gt; wrote: >> >> >> >> So, I purchased a HUB5000 WiFi hub, a TMP1101, a OUT1100, a HUM100, >> downloaded the Phidget software onto my mac and verified that I could read >> the TCs and set the PWM. Then, in Artisan, I filled in the Configure -> >> Device -> Meter by selecting TMP1101 4xTC 01 and putting out(0,{}) in the >> Config -> Events -> Sliders -> Power PWM Command field. >> >> >> >> With this (and various other things I tried), I get -1 back for both >> ET and BT, and the %PWR slider has no effect on the OUT1100 output. Note >> that nowhere do I reference anything about the HUB5000. >> >> >> >> Any pointers for getting this to work w/Artisan would be appreciated. >> > >> > Did you tick the "Network" flag in the Phidgets dialog (menu Config >> >> Device, 4th tab)? >> > By default, Artisan is only looking for Phidgets locally connected via >> USB. If that "Network" flag is ticked, it also looks for remote Phidgets >> served either by a HUB5000 and SBC or a Phidget Network Server running on >> another computer on the network. >> > >> > Note that you need indicate the address of your HUB5000 (or in general >> the Phidget Network Server Artisan should connect too) via the "Host" field >> in the Phidgets tab. The Port should remain 5661, which is the default port >> of Phidget Network Servers. The host can be given either as IP address >> (like http://192.168.2.113) or as a symbolic name (like hub5000.local). >> You can see the host name/IP in the Phidgets Control Panel (your HUB5000 >> should be listed also under Network Phidgets). >> > >> > Hope this helps, >> > Marko >> > >> > <Screen Shot 2019-08-17 at 09.05.02.png><Screen Shot 2019-08-17 at >> 09.05.06.png><Screen Shot 2019-08-17 at 09.05.32.png> >> > >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Phil >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 3:44 PM Marko Luther &lt;marko.luther(a)gmx.net&gt; >> wrote: >> >> The HUB5000 is already supported. >> >> >> >> M >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> > On 8. Aug 2019, at 20:42, Phil West via Artisan-User < >> artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de&gt; wrote: >> >> > >> >> > artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de >> >> >> > >> [Quoted text hidden] >> ------------------------------ >> *Phil West via Artisan-User *&lt;artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de&gt; 18 >> August 2019 at 07:34 >> >> Reply-To: Phil West &lt;phil.west(a)ieee.org&gt; >> To: Marko Luther &lt;marko.luther(a)gmx.net&gt; >> Cc: artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de >> >> One final question: what is the default period for the PWM, and can >> that be changed somehow? >> >> >Well, that is external to Artisan. You need to read the data sheet of >> the product you purchased. I read on >> >> >https://www.phidgets.com/?tier=3&catid=2&pcid=1&prodid=714 >> >> >that the PWM period is fixed to 16khz. The API does not offer any >> option to modify this. Just the duty can be changed >> >(via out() from within Artisan). >> >> Wow: I guess I should have checked (I have now, and you are correct), >> but it never occurred to me that someone would build a general purpose PWM >> and not allow the period to be changed. Most (all?) SSR devices switch AC >> loads on zero crossings. One US AC cycle is 16.7 milliseconds, so if you >> want to vary the AC duty seen by a load from 0%-100% with 1% resolution, >> you need a period of 1.7 seconds. Although you can, of course, modulate >> the load power using a 16kHz (62 microsecond period) PWM it really doesn't >> make much sense and leads to an extremely nonlinear %/PWR curve with almost >> all of the action happening below 50%. I'm going to give the Phidget guys >> a call next week and talk to them about this. >> >> On my prior Arduino-based controller, this period was too long to >> implement w/the standard built-in Atmel timer-based PWM functions, so I >> just implemented a simple interrupt-based routine that worked fine. >> >> >> [Quoted text hidden] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Artisan-User mailing list -- artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> artisan-user-leave(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de >> unsubscribe via >> https://mailman.ghostdub.de/postorius/lists/artisan-user.lists.einfachkaffe… >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Brad Bradshaw *&lt;ianabradshaw(a)gmail.com&gt; 18 August 2019 at 18:38 >> >> To: Phil West &lt;phil.west(a)ieee.org&gt; >> Cc: Marko Luther &lt;marko.luther(a)gmx.net&gt;et>, >> artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de >> Hi Phil, >> >> Yes it seems strange that Phidgets seem to have neglected the >> possibility for AC control in their PWM. There is a possibility the >> switching frequency is determined solely by hardware, in which case they >> would not be able to add a frequency control to the API for this design. >> It's very sensible talking to them, to ask if it is possible to present a >> control in software though, good luck with them! >> >> There are a couple of other options for effective heater element >> control. Both would rely on a different type of SSR to be used. >> >> We'll get rid of the dangerous option first! You could rectify and >> smooth the AC heater power and use a DC to DC SSR with the existing >> Phidgets PWM output. Though it is likely safer to stay away from high >> voltage, high power circuit design, unless it is an area in which you are >> familiar. >> >> The most simple, available, option would seem to be to use a >> proportional control SSR. These take an analogue current (4-20mA), or >> voltage signal (0-5V or 0-10V) on the input and convert it into either >> phase angle or burst fire control. In a roasting environment to repeatably >> control a heater element, current control of a burst fire SSR would be the >> best low noise solution. Unfortunately there is no current control option >> through Phidgets, voltage output is available and suitable, if a little >> more susceptible to noise. I requested current control (4-20mA) from >> Phidgets quite some long time ago. Maybe you can ask them too about this >> possibility if you speak with them. It's not the end of the world, current >> control has better noise rejection than voltage control. We are unlikely to >> notice a difference with voltage output, particularly if we make a good job >> of the physical connections and keep wiring short and away from other noisy >> circuits. It's just a sensible principle to adopt current control where >> possible. >> >> Crydom have a nice short, clear, pdf on the subject of SSR switching >> types here: >> >> >> http://www.crydom.com/en/tech/newsletters/Solid%20Statements%20-%20SSRs%20s… >> >> more reading; >> http://www.crydom.com/en/tech/newsletters.shtml >> >> Phidgets can do 0-4.2 or 0-10V voltage control with the OUT1000/1/2 >> series. All supported by Artisan with the VOUT Command: out(n,v) where n is >> channel number and v is voltage. >> >> Hope this helps, >> >> Brad >> >> >> >> >> [Quoted text hidden] >> >>> [Quoted text hidden] >>> [Quoted text hidden] >>> >> ------------------------------ >> *Marko Luther *&lt;marko.luther(a)gmx.net&gt; 18 August 2019 at 18:46 >> >> To: Brad Bradshaw &lt;ianabradshaw(a)gmail.com&gt; >> Cc: Phil West &lt;phil.west(a)ieee.org&gt;rg>, artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de >> Dear Brad, >> >> thanks for this competent input on the subject. I just want to add that >> the Phidget competitor from Switzerland, Yoctopuce, offers a 4-20mA output >> module (and also an input module). They sent me one, but I did not yet find >> the time to add support for it. However, I plan to do so soon. >> >> Best, >> Marko >> [Quoted text hidden] >> ------------------------------ >> *Matthias Gerstgrasser via Artisan-User *< >> artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de&gt; 18 August 2019 at 18:51 >> >> Reply-To: Matthias Gerstgrasser &lt;matthias(a)gerstgrasser.net&gt; >> To: &quot;artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de&quot; < >> artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de&gt; >> Hi Brad, Marko, Phil, >> >> Just to add another option, there are PWM AC dimmer modules in the DIY / >> hobbyist market. Those take a PWM signal as input, and “convert” this to AC >> phase-angle control. I have tested this one for AC motor control: >> https://www.tindie.com/products/bugrovs2012/pwm-ac-light-dimmer-module-50hz… >> They are a lot more ‘hack-y’ than proper SSRs, but can be a quick fix if >> you’re comfortable with that. >> >> Best, >> Matthias >> [Quoted text hidden] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Artisan-User mailing list -- artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> artisan-user-leave(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de >> unsubscribe via >> https://mailman.ghostdub.de/postorius/lists/artisan-user.lists.einfachkaffe… >> _______________________________________________ >> Artisan-User mailing list -- artisan-user(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> artisan-user-leave(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de >> unsubscribe via >> https://mailman.ghostdub.de/postorius/lists/artisan-user.lists.einfachkaffe… >> >