ROR, filters, sampling, over sampling, etc
by Fred B
I've been using the Artisan program for some time now on an Ambex ym2 with
an Omega data logger and a 2 ghz dual core laptop. I just loaded 0.8 and
I'm hoping that I might get smoother ROR values with this version as I see
that is one of the improvements. Maybe the issue is the fast response of my
probes? Is there a way to compensate for this in Artisan? Can you make
some recommendations as to the EXTRA settings for the newer version and
maybe something up to date about the effects of using values too large or
too small? My ROR just jumps around too much and by the time it's
dropping/rising too rapidly it's almost too late for me to do anything about
it. Could I benefit (or not and why) from using over sampling or a higher
or lower sample rate? I'm at 4.0 now. Which curve smoothing values affect
real time displays and which don't? I've been reading Scott Rao's new book
and find myself evaluating my roasts and looking carefully at ROR and 1st to
drop percentages so Artisan is so useful. Thanks so much to all that have
contributed to this great program.
Fred
3 years, 11 months
Re: [Artisan-user] ROR, filters, sampling, over sampling, etc
by Fred B
While I agree that Rao's book really isn't all new information, he does
mention some important points that a lot of roasters either take for granted
or chose to ignore, such as long periods after 1st C when the ROR decreases
are stalled and of course the rapid ROR increase around 1stC. Sure I've
seen those events occur and have tried to deal with them. But his book
reminds me of the importance of doing so. That's why optimizing the ROR
that I see in Artisan is pretty important since it's a valuable piece of the
information we roaster get from Artisan. Also, achieving full development
can't be over emphasized and over roasting is not the cure for that as Rao
has stated. I personally don't have 20 years roasting for a living. My 10+
years of home roasting and only 3 on a small commercial roaster, 1-3 roasts,
every weekend barely get me enough information to draw any conclusions but I
have learned a lot anyway. My roaster is barely warmed up and I have to
quit. I will be doing a better warm-up now even though it wastes some gas
after reading Rao's book.
Rao admits he can't explain the why of some of his conclusions and he is
honest about that. But his conclusions are based on the tens of thousands
of roasts that he has seen and performed himself. I'm glad to stand on his
shoulders and then try to take what works for me and draw my own
conclusions. I can't believe I ever roasted without Artisan for instance
and with Artisan and the book and more experimentation and cupping the
results I know I can improve a lot on my roasting results. Rao would be the
first to NOT want his book called the new bible but look at the discussion
it's stimulated just here. I think his book helps pull back the veil and
mystic that many pro roasters put over the roasting process like it's some
sort of magic. Not many roasters are even willing to share a sample profile
with others. An come to think of it, isn't that what Artisan does for us
too?
Anyway, when it cools off here in SoCal I'm going to load up 0.8 Artisan
and try some different parameters, try the laptop on battery, check if my
probe tips are grounded (I think they probably are) and practice with some
warmer drops and better control over ROR and the roast. Artisan is an
amazing program and the fact that it's free to us just blows me
away...thanks Marco and all the other programmers that have contributed.
You guys continue to do an amazing job.
5 years, 2 months
Re: [Artisan-user] ROR, filters, sampling, over sampling, etc
by Marko Luther
This is implemented already, but not yet released. Still I think that relation is not that useful and even wrong for short roasts. I question also most of his other oversimplified rules, besides those that are anyhow common knowledge. Rao is also completely off when it comes to automated roast control. From one example one should not derive a general rule. Never. There saw simple as well as very sophisticated automatic roast control systems that work extremely well. He is also wrong when it comes to color measuring. He just lacks the basics on the technical side of things. However, I like how well structured and short his book is. Good to have it, also to trigger discussions.
Marko
On 15.09.2014, at 18:34, Rob Gardner wrote:
> Well I don't think I'd say Rao's book is the new bible or anything, but it certainly has some very useful information that has not been written down before, or at least has not been accessible for the non-professional roaster. I roast as a hobby, and the book has helped me immensely in just the short time it's been available. Given that his Rao's guidelines provide some useful information, I'd love to see Artisan help out with display and tracking of that information. For instance, when you press the 'FC' button, it would be nice if there were a display of recommended roast end times, ie, "20% = xxx, 25% = yyy, etc" so I"m not doing these mental calculations while roasting; That's why we have computers after all.
>
> Rob
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Frans Goddijn <frans(a)goddijn.com> wrote:
> I use a PID roast controller in my fluid bed roaster which responds *very* quickly to any deviation (checking once every second) and creates a very smooth trip *plus* Artisan helps of course, so if I want I get a very straight / smooth line in the graph. So I do not think a restless graph is an error of Artisan.
>
> I also have Rao’s book and I enjoy reading it but I do not think his statements constitute the new ‘Bible’ for roasting.
>
> When I was inspired by The Book to let the time after first crack last longer than the 10% I had gotten used to (choosing a lower end temp and getting there slower), the beans were totally uninteresting and the water just rushed through them in the espresso machine.
>
> Comparing my graph to an example of his, I noticed that my First Crack started at the same moment as his example but for my preferred roast I end it sooner.
>
> From reading the book I do think that I should try to lift the graph in the first stages more, getting a larger rate of rise of degrees per minute in the first minutes.
>
> Frans
>
> Op 15 sep. 2014, om 16:57 heeft Rob Gardner <robmatic(a)gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
>
>> A few thoughts...
>>
>> As far as I can tell, smoothing only gets applied after stopping the roast (ie, hitting 'off'). But I'm not an expert, that is just my observation from using it for a year.
>>
>> I use 5s sampling rate and oversampling, and this produces reasonably smooth RoR values during the roast. And after a "smooth delta" value of 4, the finished curve is extremely smooth. ;)
>>
>> Also, regarding Rao's guidance with respect to RoR, he says that a flat RoR "even for just 1 minute" will have a negative effect, but I interpret this to mean that you should not worry too much about sample to sample RoR (4 or 5 seconds) as that is probably impossible to control even with the best equipment.
>>
>> And regarding Rao's "1st crack to drop" percentage, have you found a way to have Artisan display that in real time? ie, if first crack occurs at say, 10:00, how to get Artisan to show a recommended range for ending the roast based on that?
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Fred B <fbacher1(a)san.rr.com> wrote:
>> I’ve been using the Artisan program for some time now on an Ambex ym2 with an Omega data logger and a 2 ghz dual core laptop. I just loaded 0.8 and I’m hoping that I might get smoother ROR values with this version as I see that is one of the improvements. Maybe the issue is the fast response of my probes? Is there a way to compensate for this in Artisan? Can you make some recommendations as to the EXTRA settings for the newer version and maybe something up to date about the effects of using values too large or too small? My ROR just jumps around too much and by the time it’s dropping/rising too rapidly it’s almost too late for me to do anything about it. Could I benefit (or not and why) from using over sampling or a higher or lower sample rate? I’m at 4.0 now. Which curve smoothing values affect real time displays and which don’t? I’ve been reading Scott Rao’s new book and find myself evaluating my roasts and looking carefully at ROR and 1st to drop percentages so Artisan is so useful. Thanks so much to all that have contributed to this great program.
>>
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Artisan-User mailing list
>> Artisan-User(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de
>> https://lists.mokelbu.de/listinfo/artisan-user
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." -- Abraham Lincoln
>>
>> "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their validity." --Abraham Lincoln
>>
>> Sent from my iPalmDroidBerry7
>> _______________________________________________
>> Artisan-User mailing list
>> Artisan-User(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de
>> https://lists.mokelbu.de/listinfo/artisan-user
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Artisan-User mailing list
> Artisan-User(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de
> https://lists.mokelbu.de/listinfo/artisan-user
>
>
>
>
> --
> "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." -- Abraham Lincoln
>
> "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their validity." --Abraham Lincoln
>
> Sent from my iPalmDroidBerry7
> _______________________________________________
> Artisan-User mailing list
> Artisan-User(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de
> https://lists.mokelbu.de/listinfo/artisan-user
5 years, 2 months
Re: [Artisan-user] ROR, filters, sampling, over sampling, etc
by Frans Goddijn
Who knows, sooner than we think Artisan may have more to offer ;-)
At least that’s been my experience when such innovations were in the air.
Frans
Op 15 sep. 2014, om 18:34 heeft Rob Gardner <robmatic(a)gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
> Well I don't think I'd say Rao's book is the new bible or anything, but it certainly has some very useful information that has not been written down before, or at least has not been accessible for the non-professional roaster. I roast as a hobby, and the book has helped me immensely in just the short time it's been available. Given that his Rao's guidelines provide some useful information, I'd love to see Artisan help out with display and tracking of that information. For instance, when you press the 'FC' button, it would be nice if there were a display of recommended roast end times, ie, "20% = xxx, 25% = yyy, etc" so I"m not doing these mental calculations while roasting; That's why we have computers after all.
>
> Rob
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Frans Goddijn <frans(a)goddijn.com> wrote:
> I use a PID roast controller in my fluid bed roaster which responds *very* quickly to any deviation (checking once every second) and creates a very smooth trip *plus* Artisan helps of course, so if I want I get a very straight / smooth line in the graph. So I do not think a restless graph is an error of Artisan.
>
> I also have Rao’s book and I enjoy reading it but I do not think his statements constitute the new ‘Bible’ for roasting.
>
> When I was inspired by The Book to let the time after first crack last longer than the 10% I had gotten used to (choosing a lower end temp and getting there slower), the beans were totally uninteresting and the water just rushed through them in the espresso machine.
>
> Comparing my graph to an example of his, I noticed that my First Crack started at the same moment as his example but for my preferred roast I end it sooner.
>
> From reading the book I do think that I should try to lift the graph in the first stages more, getting a larger rate of rise of degrees per minute in the first minutes.
>
> Frans
>
> Op 15 sep. 2014, om 16:57 heeft Rob Gardner <robmatic(a)gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
>
>> A few thoughts...
>>
>> As far as I can tell, smoothing only gets applied after stopping the roast (ie, hitting 'off'). But I'm not an expert, that is just my observation from using it for a year.
>>
>> I use 5s sampling rate and oversampling, and this produces reasonably smooth RoR values during the roast. And after a "smooth delta" value of 4, the finished curve is extremely smooth. ;)
>>
>> Also, regarding Rao's guidance with respect to RoR, he says that a flat RoR "even for just 1 minute" will have a negative effect, but I interpret this to mean that you should not worry too much about sample to sample RoR (4 or 5 seconds) as that is probably impossible to control even with the best equipment.
>>
>> And regarding Rao's "1st crack to drop" percentage, have you found a way to have Artisan display that in real time? ie, if first crack occurs at say, 10:00, how to get Artisan to show a recommended range for ending the roast based on that?
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Fred B <fbacher1(a)san.rr.com> wrote:
>> I’ve been using the Artisan program for some time now on an Ambex ym2 with an Omega data logger and a 2 ghz dual core laptop. I just loaded 0.8 and I’m hoping that I might get smoother ROR values with this version as I see that is one of the improvements. Maybe the issue is the fast response of my probes? Is there a way to compensate for this in Artisan? Can you make some recommendations as to the EXTRA settings for the newer version and maybe something up to date about the effects of using values too large or too small? My ROR just jumps around too much and by the time it’s dropping/rising too rapidly it’s almost too late for me to do anything about it. Could I benefit (or not and why) from using over sampling or a higher or lower sample rate? I’m at 4.0 now. Which curve smoothing values affect real time displays and which don’t? I’ve been reading Scott Rao’s new book and find myself evaluating my roasts and looking carefully at ROR and 1st to drop percentages so Artisan is so useful. Thanks so much to all that have contributed to this great program.
>>
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Artisan-User mailing list
>> Artisan-User(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de
>> https://lists.mokelbu.de/listinfo/artisan-user
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." -- Abraham Lincoln
>>
>> "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their validity." --Abraham Lincoln
>>
>> Sent from my iPalmDroidBerry7
>> _______________________________________________
>> Artisan-User mailing list
>> Artisan-User(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de
>> https://lists.mokelbu.de/listinfo/artisan-user
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Artisan-User mailing list
> Artisan-User(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de
> https://lists.mokelbu.de/listinfo/artisan-user
>
>
>
>
> --
> "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." -- Abraham Lincoln
>
> "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their validity." --Abraham Lincoln
>
> Sent from my iPalmDroidBerry7
5 years, 2 months
Re: [Artisan-user] ROR, filters, sampling, over sampling, etc
by Marko Luther
On 15.09.2014, at 16:57, Rob Gardner wrote:
> A few thoughts...
>
> As far as I can tell, smoothing only gets applied after stopping the roast (ie, hitting 'off'). But I'm not an expert, that is just my observation from using it for a year.
Not true. Just that the smoothing algorithm applied during the roast is a different one than the one that is applied after the roast. The after the roast does not produce a time lag.
> I use 5s sampling rate and oversampling, and this produces reasonably smooth RoR values during the roast. And after a "smooth delta" value of 4, the finished curve is extremely smooth. ;)
Yep. I am using also at least 5s samplings. The reason this works better is that this compensates for the lack of resolution in the temperature signal. Some meters (like the Phidgets) have a higher resolution (at least on the readings side, not necessarily physically relevant) providing two decimal places.
> Also, regarding Rao's guidance with respect to RoR, he says that a flat RoR "even for just 1 minute" will have a negative effect, but I interpret this to mean that you should not worry too much about sample to sample RoR (4 or 5 seconds) as that is probably impossible to control even with the best equipment.
>
> And regarding Rao's "1st crack to drop" percentage, have you found a way to have Artisan display that in real time? ie, if first crack occurs at say, 10:00, how to get Artisan to show a recommended range for ending the roast based on that?
Next version will offer this, as well as a lot other things. You have still to wait a moment for this. Sorry.
Marko
>
> Rob
>
> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Fred B <fbacher1(a)san.rr.com> wrote:
> I’ve been using the Artisan program for some time now on an Ambex ym2 with an Omega data logger and a 2 ghz dual core laptop. I just loaded 0.8 and I’m hoping that I might get smoother ROR values with this version as I see that is one of the improvements. Maybe the issue is the fast response of my probes? Is there a way to compensate for this in Artisan? Can you make some recommendations as to the EXTRA settings for the newer version and maybe something up to date about the effects of using values too large or too small? My ROR just jumps around too much and by the time it’s dropping/rising too rapidly it’s almost too late for me to do anything about it. Could I benefit (or not and why) from using over sampling or a higher or lower sample rate? I’m at 4.0 now. Which curve smoothing values affect real time displays and which don’t? I’ve been reading Scott Rao’s new book and find myself evaluating my roasts and looking carefully at ROR and 1st to drop percentages so Artisan is so useful. Thanks so much to all that have contributed to this great program.
>
>
> Fred
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Artisan-User mailing list
> Artisan-User(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de
> https://lists.mokelbu.de/listinfo/artisan-user
>
>
>
>
> --
> "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." -- Abraham Lincoln
>
> "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their validity." --Abraham Lincoln
>
> Sent from my iPalmDroidBerry7
> _______________________________________________
> Artisan-User mailing list
> Artisan-User(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de
> https://lists.mokelbu.de/listinfo/artisan-user
5 years, 2 months
Re: [Artisan-user] ROR, filters, sampling, over sampling, etc
by Frans Goddijn
I use a PID roast controller in my fluid bed roaster which responds *very* quickly to any deviation (checking once every second) and creates a very smooth trip *plus* Artisan helps of course, so if I want I get a very straight / smooth line in the graph. So I do not think a restless graph is an error of Artisan.
I also have Rao’s book and I enjoy reading it but I do not think his statements constitute the new ‘Bible’ for roasting.
When I was inspired by The Book to let the time after first crack last longer than the 10% I had gotten used to (choosing a lower end temp and getting there slower), the beans were totally uninteresting and the water just rushed through them in the espresso machine.
Comparing my graph to an example of his, I noticed that my First Crack started at the same moment as his example but for my preferred roast I end it sooner.
From reading the book I do think that I should try to lift the graph in the first stages more, getting a larger rate of rise of degrees per minute in the first minutes.
Frans
Op 15 sep. 2014, om 16:57 heeft Rob Gardner <robmatic(a)gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
> A few thoughts...
>
> As far as I can tell, smoothing only gets applied after stopping the roast (ie, hitting 'off'). But I'm not an expert, that is just my observation from using it for a year.
>
> I use 5s sampling rate and oversampling, and this produces reasonably smooth RoR values during the roast. And after a "smooth delta" value of 4, the finished curve is extremely smooth. ;)
>
> Also, regarding Rao's guidance with respect to RoR, he says that a flat RoR "even for just 1 minute" will have a negative effect, but I interpret this to mean that you should not worry too much about sample to sample RoR (4 or 5 seconds) as that is probably impossible to control even with the best equipment.
>
> And regarding Rao's "1st crack to drop" percentage, have you found a way to have Artisan display that in real time? ie, if first crack occurs at say, 10:00, how to get Artisan to show a recommended range for ending the roast based on that?
>
> Rob
>
> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Fred B <fbacher1(a)san.rr.com> wrote:
> I’ve been using the Artisan program for some time now on an Ambex ym2 with an Omega data logger and a 2 ghz dual core laptop. I just loaded 0.8 and I’m hoping that I might get smoother ROR values with this version as I see that is one of the improvements. Maybe the issue is the fast response of my probes? Is there a way to compensate for this in Artisan? Can you make some recommendations as to the EXTRA settings for the newer version and maybe something up to date about the effects of using values too large or too small? My ROR just jumps around too much and by the time it’s dropping/rising too rapidly it’s almost too late for me to do anything about it. Could I benefit (or not and why) from using over sampling or a higher or lower sample rate? I’m at 4.0 now. Which curve smoothing values affect real time displays and which don’t? I’ve been reading Scott Rao’s new book and find myself evaluating my roasts and looking carefully at ROR and 1st to drop percentages so Artisan is so useful. Thanks so much to all that have contributed to this great program.
>
>
> Fred
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Artisan-User mailing list
> Artisan-User(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de
> https://lists.mokelbu.de/listinfo/artisan-user
>
>
>
>
> --
> "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." -- Abraham Lincoln
>
> "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their validity." --Abraham Lincoln
>
> Sent from my iPalmDroidBerry7
> _______________________________________________
> Artisan-User mailing list
> Artisan-User(a)lists.einfachkaffee.de
> https://lists.mokelbu.de/listinfo/artisan-user
5 years, 2 months